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#87434 - 06/09/05 11:14 AM Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
Gay marriages are being legalised in various countries, but with different responses, and I think it might be worth us discussing the matter, here.

However, this subject is bound to cause some peoples' emotions to run high, so, if you would like to comment on it, please try to keep your posts logical, and ensure that they are not offensive.

Thank you.

A BBC site recived these comments, among others:

"Marriage and religion are not the same thing. Marriage is a legal contract. Saying "I do" in church does not make a marriage binding - you have to sign a register. The church hijacked marriage hundreds of years ago. People marry in church to have a religious service to satisfy their beliefs. Others do it in a registry office. As for what is "right" and "wrong" according to the bible - it also says divorce is wrong, adultery, eating certain foods at certain times (Lent is a prime example), that you should sacrifice livestock when your wife gets pregnant.... exactly how many people here who are bible-bashing can hold their hands up and say they follow these doctrines? Until you can, you should follow another passage from the bible - something about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? All I see here are hypocrites." Anon. UK.

"As a marriage is a union of a male and a female person in the sight of God, it is ridiculous to say that a group of lawmakers can 'legalise' or 'ban' what is not theirs to decide. Politicians should focus on clarifying what rights and responsibilities co-habiting couples of any persuasion should be entitled to from the State rather than abusing a religious concept for secular legal and political reasons."
Geoff, Portsmouth, UK

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3895983.stm)

I have found a number of other relevant items, which I will post separately.
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#87435 - 06/09/05 11:23 AM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
Gay marriage in the news: Gay Marriage: The Arguments and the Motives A personal essay by Scott Bidstrup [The entire article is worth reading] Ask just about anyone. They'll all tell you they're in favor of equal rights for homosexuals. Just name the situation, and ask. They'll all say, yes, gays should have the same rights in housing, jobs, public accommodations, and should have equal access to government benefits, equal protection of the law, etcetera, etcetera. Then you get to gay marriage. And that's when all this talk of equality stops dead cold. More than half of all people in the United States oppose gay marriage, even though three fourths are otherwise supportive of gay rights. http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm * * * BBC News : Monday, 19 July, 2004, 20:08 GMT 21:08 UK Should same-sex marriages be made legal? President George W Bush has said he will carry on trying to make homosexual marriages illegal in the US after a constitutional amendment on the issue was defeated by the Senate. The Republican proposal failed to gain the support of the 60 senators it needed to progress to the next stage. Mr Bush is seeking to change the US constitution to specify that marriage can only take place between a man and a woman. So far 38 US states have banned homosexual marriage, but lawsuits in Florida, Nebraska, New Jersey and Oregon are seeking to have it ruled legal. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3895983.stm This item is followed by a series of comments by the public. * * * The Week 4/2/2004 The origins of marriage Men who married men [b]Gay marriage is rare in history—but not unknown[/b]. The Roman emperor Nero, who ruled from A.D. 54 to 68, twice married men in formal wedding ceremonies, and forced the Imperial Court to treat them as his wives. In second- and third-century Rome, homosexual weddings became common enough that it worried the social commentator Juvenal …. “Look—a man of family and fortune—being wed to a man!” Juvenal wrote. “Such things, before we’re very much older, will be done in public.” He mocked such unions, saying that male “brides” would never be able to “hold their husbands by having a baby.” The Romans outlawed formal homosexual unions in the year 342. But Yale history professor John Boswell says he’s found scattered evidence of homosexual unions after that time, including some that were recognized by Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches. [b]In one 13th-century Greek Orthodox ceremony, the “Order for Solemnisation of Same Sex Union,”[/b] the celebrant asked God to grant the participants “grace to love one another and to abide unhated and not a cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God and all thy saints.” http://www.theweekmagazine.com/briefing.asp?a_id=567 * * * http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/4575173.stm Priest set to wed in gay marriage A [b]gay clergywoman will take part in the UK's first same-sex wedding in Brighton later this year[/b]. The Rev Debbie Gaston.. will marry her partner of 16 years .. on 21 December - the first day gay weddings are legal. Two other couples will marry on the same morning in a joint ceremony at the register office in Brighton Town Hall. The city's council has been a supporter of gay weddings, which become possible under the new Civil Partnership Act. The Act comes into force on 5 December, but there is a 15-day period before any ceremonies can take place, making 21 December the first day couples can tie the knot. * * * April 22, 2005 Vatican attack on Spain's gay marriage law BY RUTH GLEDHILL, RELIGION CORRESPODENT A senior Vatican cardinal has today condemned as "iniquitous" plans to allow gay marriages and adoptions in Spain, one of Europe's most Catholic countries. The attack on the Spanish Government's Bill to legalise same-sex marriages is an early indication of how the new papacy can be expected to adhere rigidly to the precedents put in place by Pope John Paul II, and supported by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in his role as Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. The new Pope has described homosexuality as objectively disordered and an intrinsic moral evil. The Bill was adopted on Thursday .. making Spain the third country to recognise gay marriages and the first in Europe to allow gay marriages and adoption of children by gay couples. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,20709-1580888,00.html * * * Cambodian king backs gay marriage Cambodia's King Norodom Sihanouk has shown that advancing years are no barrier to an open mind and liberal attitude. After watching television images of gay marriages in San Francisco, the 81-year-old monarch has decided that single sex weddings should be allowed in Cambodia too. [b]He said he had respect for homosexual and lesbians and said they were as they were because God loved a "wide range of tastes."[/b] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3505915.stm * * The Sunday Times - Britain May 29, 2005 Church to let gay clergy ‘marry’ but they must stay celibate CHRISTOPHER MORGAN HOMOSEXUAL priests in the Church of England will be allowed to “marry” their boyfriends under a proposal drawn up by senior bishops, led by Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury. The decision ensures that gay and lesbian clergy who wish to register relationships under the new “civil partnerships” law — giving them many of the tax and inheritance advantages of married couples — will not lose their licences to be priests. They will, however, have to give an assurance to their diocesan bishop that they will abstain from sex. … http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1632517,00.html * * * Canada 'can permit gay marriage' The majority of Canadians are in favour of same-sex marriage Canada's Supreme Court has told the government it can legalise gay marriage without violating the constitution. The move comes hours after New Zealand's parliament voted to recognise civil unions between gay couples. Prime Minister Paul Martin said his Liberal government would bring in gay marriage legislation in the new year. Thursday, 9 December, 2004, 19:10 GMT http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4082819.stm * * * The case for gay marriage Feb 26th 2004 From The Economist print edition It rests on equality, liberty and even society SO AT last it is official: George Bush is in favour of unequal rights, … That is the implication of his announcement this week that he will support efforts to pass a constitutional amendment in America banning gay marriage. … Mr Bush says that he is acting to protect “the most fundamental institution of civilisation” from what he sees as “activist judges” who in Massachusetts early this month confirmed an earlier ruling that banning gay marriage is contrary to their state constitution. The city of San Francisco, gay capital of America, has been issuing thousands of marriage licences to homosexual couples, in apparent contradiction to state and even federal laws. http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2459758 * * See also: http://www.debatabase.org/details.asp?topicID=63
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#87436 - 06/09/05 08:43 PM Re: Gay marriage
Aerial Offline
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Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1925
I can't see anything wrong in gays getting married. It obviously offends many but in a few years it'll be different I'm sure.

Living together thirty years ago between heterosexuals was considered an outrage. I mean, how dare you live with someone without marriage, it's sinful.

Having a baby out of wedlock was frowned upon. Many babies HAD to be put up for adoption because of this.

Priests marry? Why not?

If gays want to marry, let them.

(I haven't put a lot of thought into this as my mum's just returned from hospital so not thinking as well as I should)

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#87437 - 06/10/05 06:50 AM Re: Gay marriage
Aerial Offline
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Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1925
Another thing is that things always change as the years go by so undoubtedly this will all be something that will become quite legal in the future.

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#87438 - 06/10/05 03:25 PM Re: Gay marriage
Ashley Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 260
Loc: Massachusetts
Alright I thought I would just mention this.. deacons can marry and they can do everything that a priest can except for concecrating the eucharist and a few other minor things.
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#87439 - 06/13/05 05:23 PM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Ashley:
Alright I thought I would just mention this.. deacons can marry and they can do everything that a priest can except for concecrating the eucharist and a few other minor things.
That's interesting, Ashley. It makes you wonder, even more, why priests can't marry.
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#87440 - 06/13/05 05:24 PM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Nikkums:
Another thing is that things always change as the years go by so undoubtedly this will all be something that will become quite legal in the future.
It seems that the time is likely to be now.
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#87441 - 06/30/05 04:34 AM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
From the BBC News website, Wednesday, 29 June, 2005:

'Canada's parliament has approved a bill to legalise same-sex marriage, despite opposition from conservative MPs.
The bill was supported by 158 lawmakers in the 308-seat House of Commons, with 133 MPs voting against.

'It is expected to win Senate approval and become law by July, making Canada the third country after the Netherlands and Belgium to allow gay marriages.

'Gay marriage is already legal in eight of 10 provinces and one of Canada's three territories.'


Full item: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4632229.stm
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#87442 - 06/30/05 05:09 AM Re: Gay marriage
Aerial Offline
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Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1925
I read that today PDM and I'm all in favour of it.

I'm not gay but I can't understand why two people in love can't be married.

I have two cousin's who are gay, one female and one male and two more loving and caring people would be hard to find. My cousin Krissy is going to Canada later this year to marry the girl she has as a partner. They've been together now ten years and are still very much in love.

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#87443 - 06/30/05 06:35 AM Re: Gay marriage
SpookyMark Offline
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Registered: 03/27/05
Posts: 1350
Loc: new zealand
Down here (New Zealand) earlier this year the parliment passed what is called the "Civil Union Bill" Which is basically saying that same sex relationships are ok. Although not a "marriage" the relationship is "recognised officially". This accompanies an earlier amendment to property laws giving same sex defacto couples equal proprty rights ("matrimonial property act")should a relationship dissolve after two years. Previously it had related to a three year period, and only to male/female relationships. So, with the two pieces of legislation combined, i would say that it could be quite strongly argued that New Zealand was the third country to legalise same sex "marriages".
There was so much uproar during the reading of the bill that people from opposing parties very came to blows in public protests.....
Personally, i dont have an opinion on the matter as it has no bearing on my life - good luck to all.
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#87444 - 06/30/05 07:16 AM Re: Gay marriage
SarahWilson Offline
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Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1569
Loc: GA
I just wish the US would follow suit. We should not be able to pick and choose rights for people. If two people love each other who cares?
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#87445 - 07/01/05 04:41 AM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
I suppose it takes a while for some people to come to terms with changing attitudes.
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#87446 - 07/01/05 04:59 AM Re: Gay marriage
LPG Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1126
If they want to, let them, what difference is it to living together as many people do today anyway?

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#87447 - 07/01/05 06:24 AM Re: Gay marriage
SpookyMark Offline
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Registered: 03/27/05
Posts: 1350
Loc: new zealand
there doesnt seem to be much input from our christian friends on this topic, i'd like to hear views on modern day interpretations of the scripture and how it may fit to this particular social climate.
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#87448 - 07/01/05 06:34 AM Re: Gay marriage
Aerial Offline
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Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1925
I noticed that too....... I've got an Aunty Gay but she's not gay, just happy wink

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#87449 - 07/01/05 07:10 AM Re: Gay marriage
SarahWilson Offline
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Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1569
Loc: GA
Quote:
Originally posted by shinrai:
there doesnt seem to be much input from our christian friends on this topic, i'd like to hear views on modern day interpretations of the scripture and how it may fit to this particular social climate.
Let's not make generalizations about Christians. I am a Christian. So you have input from at least one Christian!
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#87450 - 07/01/05 11:24 AM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
I wonder why it is, Sarah, that you and other committed Christians consider this in the light of freedom, equality, love, acceptance, etc while others either ignore the subject or think that it is morally wrong - or both?
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#87451 - 07/01/05 06:34 PM Re: Gay marriage
SarahWilson Offline
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Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1569
Loc: GA
A lot may have to do with a person is raised. One of my uncles was gay and I was raised by a family that taught that people should be accepted despite color, sexual orientation, religion, etc. BUT the kicker was my family was not "Christian." I became a Christian in my twenties. The thing is I believe my family raised me with TRUE Christian values.
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#87452 - 07/01/05 07:31 PM Re: Gay marriage
Aerial Offline
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Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1925
I think much depends on the individual PDM. Sarah has said it all. I was raised in the Baptist church and became a christian but was also taught that nobody should be condemned just because of their race, religious beliefs, culture etc.

As to the other christians on this board, I'm guessing they're prefer to take a back step in this and not comment, perhaps in the fear they'll be criticised for their thoughts.

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#87453 - 07/01/05 07:59 PM Re: Gay marriage
SarahWilson Offline
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Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1569
Loc: GA
Maybe Nikkums. My husband was raised "Southern Baptist" which is extremely conservative. It made him completely turn against religion and God. Now he has come to a sort of peace about it and he likes my church. My husband is not racist or homophobic but he was raised with very conservative attitudes. Dont get me wrong I LOVE his Mom! She seems more mellow now than before I guess. But she still has her moments. We took her to eat a Chinese restaurant close to her house. She saw a man in there drinking a beer and freaked! I couldnt belive it. She said she would never go back because they serve beer. I wanted to ask her where she bought her groceries because most grocery stores (walmart is where she goes) sell alcohol. Also I wonder what she would think if she knew that her son and I enjoy the occasional beer or mixed drink.

I think that to an extent we all pick and choose our values and to some degree we are all hypocrites. I just think that when it comes to human rights we need to be logical. If gay marriage was legalized tomorrow here in the US (no what that'll happen with Bush in office) it would not affect me at all. I would be happy for same sex couples. That is IT.

On a side not Sandra Day O'Connor is retiring and so is another terminally ill Supreme Court Justice. That means Bush will get to appoint 2 justices...God help us all!
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#87454 - 07/02/05 10:04 AM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
Thursday, June 30, 2005 'Spain legalises gay marriages' [i]This morning the Spanish government finally passed the new law legalising same-sex marriages in Spain, just two days before the traditional annual "Gay pride" march is due to be held in Madrid. Parliament voted in favour of the new legislation by 187 votes in favour, 147 against and 4 abstentions. One PP MP, Celia Villalobos, broke the party discipline code by voting in favour of the law - something which is almost unthought of within the strict confines of Popular Party norms. And the coordinator of the Gay and Lesbian section of the Popular Party later told the Spanish press waiting outside Congress that he intended to ask Madrid's charismatic PP mayor, Alberto Ruiz Gallardon (considered to be one of the party's moderates) to conduct the marriage ceremony between him and his partner this Summer. It is not known whether or not Ruiz Gallardon will agree to the request. Spanish President José Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said before the vote that "a small change in the wording (of the previous legislation) respresents a massive change to the lives of thousands of compatriots". Spain now joins Belgium, Holland and Canada as the fourth country to legalise gay marriages.[/i] http://www.euroresidentes.com/Blogs/Spain_News.htm
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#87455 - 07/05/05 02:40 PM Re: Gay marriage
cam Offline
Companion

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Tc, Mi
george bush can bite my big toe!!!! Just thought Id get that out of the way. America seems to be gretting worse in the area of civil rights in the name of christianity.. Hey I even watched a program last night discussing that our goverment is trying very hard to get rid of Public telivision..Alot of our news is very tainted.

Im all for the christian way..Im just not so sure that all of these people who are trying to control others in the name of christ are actually on the real true path..It seems that more and more that the judgemental controling way is taking over this country.. Sad.. let people love!!let people marry!!!! stop trying to control everyone!!!! anyway thats how i feel about the matter.. Its pretty emotional for me.

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#87456 - 07/05/05 03:14 PM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
Quote:
Originally posted by cam:

... Im all for the christian way..Im just not so sure that all of these people who are trying to control others in the name of christ are actually on the real true path. ...
Hear, hear!
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#87457 - 07/05/05 05:35 PM Re: Gay marriage
SarahWilson Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1569
Loc: GA
Quote:
Originally posted by cam:
george bush can bite my big toe!!!! Just thought Id get that out of the way. America seems to be gretting worse in the area of civil rights in the name of christianity.. Hey I even watched a program last night discussing that our goverment is trying very hard to get rid of Public telivision..Alot of our news is very tainted.

Im all for the christian way..Im just not so sure that all of these people who are trying to control others in the name of christ are actually on the real true path..It seems that more and more that the judgemental controling way is taking over this country.. Sad.. let people love!!let people marry!!!! stop trying to control everyone!!!! anyway thats how i feel about the matter.. Its pretty emotional for me.
It is a scary place to live. Hubby and I are seriously trying to see if we can somehow move to Canada.
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#87458 - 07/05/05 06:28 PM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
My son has just told me that Canada is one of the safest places to live. And beautiful, too!
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#87459 - 07/05/05 06:35 PM Re: Gay marriage
Aerial Offline
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Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1925
I'll agree on that one PDM. I lived there for four months in BC and did a LOT of touring.

Totally loved the place. The people are incredibly hospitable and friendly no matter where you go.

My mum taught there for a semester and we're looking at returning in the next few years.

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#87460 - 07/07/05 09:21 AM Re: Gay marriage
Alice Maud Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 40
Loc: Australia
Tolerance and caring... that is what the world needs.. So long as people love one another and are consenting who cares what sex they are?

Why should only heterosexual people be allowed to share their love with the world?

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#87461 - 07/07/05 07:59 PM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
Quote:
Originally posted by Alice Maud:
Why should only heterosexual people be allowed to share their love with the world?
Good point.
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#87462 - 07/07/05 09:04 PM Re: Gay marriage
LPG Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1126
Yes, I totally agree there PDM.

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#87463 - 07/08/05 06:48 AM Re: Gay marriage
SarahWilson Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1569
Loc: GA
It seems like in light of recent terrorist acts we should be celebrating love instead of putting people down for it.

My denomination, The United Church of Christ recently voted to recognize homosexuals unions as equal to heterosexual ones. Creating a lot of buzz and talk in the media. I think it sends a positive message in a world where we dont get a lot of positive news these days.
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#87464 - 07/08/05 07:56 AM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
Hi Sarah I looked on the website of 'The United Church of Christ' [http://www.ucc.org/index2.html ]and I found an article: 'Does God have a plan for same-sex relationships?' by Andrew G. Lang Here's an extract: [i]'Like all other women and men, lesbians and gays are called by God to live a life not for ourselves, but for others. We are called to covenantal relationships in which our lives correspond to the inner life of God who is self-in-community, who in God's own being is self-for-others. 'Gay and lesbian unions are covenantal relationships if they conform to this Trinitarian structure. Like heterosexual marriage and celibate community, these relationships are "schools for sinners," in which two partners learn how to live in the paradox of freedom that is unlimited precisely because it is limited by the other. The partner in a same-sex relationship is truly "other"—not through the complementarity of a man and woman, of course, but in the mutuality of two persons who in freedom choose each other and delight in being chosen. God creates these relationships because within the limits of our given sexuality we are always called out of isolation into community. Always. Always! Through these relationships we learn what it means to be truly human, to care for another as much as we care for ourselves, to learn that a life enclosed on itself is death, but a life opened to other lives is God's gift and command to those who believe.'[/i] http://www.ucc.org/theology/acton1.htm I think the attitude of this church and certain others is very commendable. Anything that allows for love, tolerance, kindness, etc, in a world which contains so much hatred and violence has to be commended, I think. How does your church - and others with a more liberal attitude - get past the argument, which has been posted in other threads on homosexuality, that God, via the Bible (Leviticus & Corinthians, if I remember correctly), condemns homosexuality? Is it, otherwise, reasonably traditional in its ways and beliefs? Perhaps, since their argument would be that of a Christian church, it might be one that could spread to other, less liberal, Christian groups!?
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"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.

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#87465 - 07/08/05 08:10 AM Re: Gay marriage
Aerial Offline
Best Friend

Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1925
I was raised in the Baptist Church and they were very liberal with homosexuals, in fact, we had a few in the congregation and the youth group. They were treated as they should have been, the same as other people.

My church didn't condemn homosexuality at all, instead saying that anyone who loved another was welcome, regardless of sex.

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#87466 - 07/27/05 08:20 PM Re: Gay marriage
Monterrey0love Offline
Long Time Friend

Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 568
Loc: Minnesota
noooooooooooooooooo way should we ever! mad mad
GOD created men and women to be married and have children. it is a disgrase to any Christian, Catholic or Lutheren. And to GOD!!!!!! mad mad mad mad mad mad

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#87467 - 07/27/05 08:33 PM Re: Gay marriage
PDM Offline

True Blue Soulmate

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 22697
Loc: UK
Well, Jill, it's true that traditionally marriage meant one man and one woman being joined in matrimony.

I heard two Gay people talking about this on the radio today.

The woman wanted to be able to marry her long-term partner.

The man agreed that marriage was for one male and one female, so he would be happy with an official union under a different name.

I'm wondering what exactly is disgraceful.
If you believe that God created us all, then that includes homosexuals. If you believe that marriage is a good thing, then surely it is good for homosexuals as well as for heterosexuals?
_________________________
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