RomanceClass.com Forums Romance Non-Romance Relationships: Friends Relatives Etc. marriage strained by relatives

On the forum list, Lisa Shea's words regarding this topic are: "Sometimes having a 'romantic' relationship can affect your relationships with family and friends."

In my case, the issue is more or less the reverse --- some family relationships are affecting my marriage, quite badly; in particular, it's my husband's son ("Sonny") and his wife that are an endless thorn in my side and an endless source of conflict for hubby and me.

I've had two disturbing realizations lately that are depressing me: (1) I don't want to spend the rest of my life arguing with hubby about Sonny's bad behavior and how it will not, so help me, negatively impact me any more; (2) Sonny's bad behavior and hubby's acceptance (and even defense) of it are never, ever going to end.

So my question for anyone who has advice about this is: How do I know where/when to give up? When is enough enough?

The only way to never have to deal with horrid Sonny is to divorce my husband; I do not want this to happen, but I simply cannot tolerate one more second of stress, conflict, and the sense of impending doom.

If we stay together, then we have to reach an "agree to disagree" point where hubby can have whatever relationship he wants with Sonny but it can not impact me. How to get to that point, I don't know. (An example would be if Sonny and his Enabler Wife split up, and Sonny thinks he can live with us for awhile or asks us for money--- either of these are completely out of the question, for me -- been there, done that, been bit in the butt for our efforts.

I am looking for a family counselor, in the hope that maybe a professional can give hubby & me ideas for negotiating a peaceful treaty. My not-so-hidden agenda, too, is that he/she could get hubby to realize that it is unfair to let his son victimize his spouse, and that sometimes confrontation is inevitable.

For my part, I simply don't understand why hubby can't just draw the line with Sonny; it seems like either cowardice or fear of emotional blackmail (if he criticizes Sonny he'll never get to see granddaughter again?).

Thanks for listening & I look forward to advice... I am so tired, tired, tired of this mess & it occurs to me that there may be plenty of good ideas "out there" that I'm just too fried to think of...

Hi Pudgie's Mom.

I think that they were my words, actually, but that's just by the by.

I am not in your situation, so I can't help in that respect, but maybe, as an outsider, I can give some objective comments.

Also, I think that many of us will have been in a situation, where a relative or friend of a loved-one is causing us difficulty in some area.

It's a well known thing that step-families can have problems. It doesn't always happen ~ sometimes these relationships can be very successful ~ but there are many that don't work so well. I think that anyone in such a situation should, perhaps, be prepared for some problems.

Also, of course, there can be generational problems in any family.
And then there is the 'in-law' aspect. Mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law often don'r get on.
Maybe problems are exacerbated, where there is a step-relationship, too.

From your husband's point of view, I should imagine that, when he re-married, he may have promised himself, and his kids, that, no matter what happened, the new situation would not come between him and his kids.

From the son's point of view, there may be some kind of Cinderella complex. Daddy has a new wife. Maybe he loves her better than our Mummy. Maybe we'll be pushed out. Maybe we'll have to battle for his affections and try to overcome the new lady. And, the thing is, these sorts of thoughts remain. This can happen no matter what age the 'child'.

If this is the case, then he needs to confront the demons of his inner child ~ will Daddy still love him?; is the new lady usurping his mother's place?

He may feel that he has to remain faithful to his mother, and not betray her, by being nice to the stepmother ~ no matter how good and decent she may be, etc, etc.

This puts the father in a difficult position, because one's child is always one's baby, who one wants to protect ~ especially, if the child has been through trauma.

I think that you need to try to be as objective as possible, if you are to understand and work through this situation. This could be difficult, because you are in a very emotional personal situation.

But just try imagining what it must have felt like for your stepson to lose the security of the family he had and to have 'a new mommy' ~ and, again, I don't know how old he was at the time, but, I think that the inner child will still battle to keep the security of his own Mummy & Daddy, even as he grows older.

If you can try to empathise with how he may have felt, and realise that he may not even be able to help his feelings ~ because they could be instinctive ~ then you may be able to find a way to move on.

Your 'arguing with hubby about Sonny's bad behavior' is probably not the way. It is just adding to the negativity.

Perhaps, when you are both feeling calm and relaxed, you could have an objective discussion about it???

I think that it needs again to be a matter of empathy:

First, I hope that you will agree, you need to acknowledge, to each other, that you love each other and that you want to remain together and sort this out.

Then, you both need to acknowledge that you are a unit & must behave as one, and not let others come between you.

You need to acknowledge, to him, that you understand that the son has rejected you, and that this may be because he feels that you are an intruder into the family; that, while you know that he is now a grown man with a wife and child, he may still retain these childhood feelings.

Further, you could state that you understand that he does not want to lose his son, or his son's love, or contact with his grand-daughter ~ and that you would not want him to.

However, he must understand that, as you are his wife, you deserve his respect and support and that he must accept that there is bad feeling between him and you and that this is not pleasant for you and makes you feel like an outsider, who does not have her husband's support.

He must understand that it was his decision to be your husband, and, as such, he is your partner partner, and he needs to try to understand your hurt feelings.

You need to acknowledge that you understand that he will not wish to fall out with his son, but he should at least acknowledge, to you, that he is being rude and unpleasant and it would be appreciated if he could have a word with him about it ~ respecting the woman he loves, etc.

You could tell him that you do not want any more arguments about it, as it is tearing your marriage apart, but neither do you want any more dealings with the son and his family, if he is going to make life miserable for you.

Perhaps you can then work out a way of dealing with this, where your husband sees him at certain times, while you visit friends and relatives.

I agree that family counselling would be a really good idea, because it will help you all to see this objectively.
Then you can start to work on the situation.

These are just my thoughts, and some ideas, which came to me as I read your post. I don't know your family, or the situation, so I may not be helping much.

Often, just writing things down helps to allow your mind to sort out some ideas ~ have you had any thoughts, yourself, on what you could do?

Good luck!

PS.
If you feel that raising the issue in conversation might just start another argument, then you could put it in a letter for him to read ~ and explain that you need him to know how you feel; you want to understand how he feels, and you want to sort it out amicably.

Thank you for all the ideas and perspective, PDM!

In particular, your point about the son feeling that I was/am an intruder is making me think more about that issue. Sonny was 7 when his parents divorced, and 19 when I first starting seeing his father. The three of us all lived together shortly afterward, until (after 6 years of conflict) Sonny moved into his mother's house (who tossed him out within six months). So even if Sonny doesn't perceive me as an intruder with regard to his mother, he certainly saw me, after a year or so, as an intruder with regard to his father. (Sonny essentially got away scot-free with everything imaginable, when it was just him and his father in the house, but along come I, asking about things like chores or paying rent and other normal expectations for a 21-year old.))



Those are all great suggestions, and I really like the calm tone of your wording. Unfortunately, I have tried them all with hubby, to no avail, although I may try again when I feel calm and "centered" and less emotional... Hubby's response is usually a nod, an agreement, and then a complete change of subject. Occasionally he is in complete denial of certain incidents; at other times he makes excuses for Sonny that are patently ridiculous, and I feel some respect for him slipping away.

The situation has become so toxic, and the only thing I know to do, with toxic people, is to avoid them, but Sonny is like guillotine constantly hanging over me...

I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as too much talking it out, or maybe that's just a personal flaw of mine. I'm thinking that actions speak louder than words but I don't have anything concrete in mind...

I am trying to get myself to a zen-like state (lol) with regard to Sonny -- not reacting emotionally, refusing to let his behavior upset me, etc. We'll see...

Thanks for the feedback!

Perhaps the counselling will help ~ if you can arrange that.

Is it not possible for your husband to have a relationship with his son, but for you to be elsewhere at the time?

Good luck, anyway!

Thank you.

To clarify, I rarely am in the same place with Sonny & loony daughter-in-law; hubby usually visits them at their house.

It's more the indirect impact they have, and may have in the future, that makes me angry/fearful/hurt. I do feel like the outsider in my own marriage sometimes, and I would definitely be the outsider if it came down to Sonny moving back into this house or "borrowing" large sums of money.

A pressing issue currently is that I'm planning hubby's Big Six-Oh birthday party. I'll be darned if I'll invite Sonny and d.-in-law, but hubby would be permanently angry with me if I didn't... Hubby has never even slightly reprimanded them for any of their behavior, but he would "read me the riot act" for cutting them out of a family party that I host.

Sorry -- ranting again... Just tired of being painted into a corner as "the bad guy" in the situation, while the people who endlessly make bad choices and start all the drama are never criticized & never suffer any negative consequences...

Yes, I fear that not inviting them would cause even more problems for you.

Would there be plenty of your friends and relatives at the party?
Would it be possible to just stay away from them and chat t people you get on with?

I know it wouldn't be much fun for you, but it might be an answer.

Couldn't you arrange a special event for you and your husband ~ as well or instead ~ like a romantic weekend away, perhaps?

That is a really great idea! I shall give this some thought... Thanks!

Hi, I can really empathize with your situation. I was married years ago to a man and my step daughter was the disturbing influence in the relationship. You have gotten some really wonderful advice from PDM. I have some personal experiences I can share that may help. Years ago My ex husband had a very good friend who came to live with us. I didn't have problems with it at first. He seemed like a nice enough guy. Over a period of weeks and months this friend started to get confrontational. If I said one thing he said the opposite. He kept his room filthy and I was expected to clean up after this guy. I finally got fed up and started to complain to my husband about his friend arguing about everything. My husband and I argued occasionally ourselves and so he was not sympathetic to my complaints. On the contrary, he took the friends side and this hurt my feelings. I felt as if my husband should have understood my feelings. I got angry and swore I would not say another word or get goaded into an argument with the friend if my life depended on it. Every time I said something and the friend took the opposing point of view I would just stay quiet and not comment. We were sitting around watching TV one night and this happened about five times. A day or so later, my husband came to me and apologized and said he saw what I was talking about. He realized that his friend was doing exactly what I had said. That showed me something very important about human behavior. When you are complaining to someone about someone they care about, it is common for a person to defend the person they care about because they identify with that person. Because you are complaining and attacking you become viewed as the offending party. When you let the situation speak for itself it becomes much clearer to see. There is not the distraction of your complaints and arguing to stand in the way of seeing exactly what the other person is doing. Only their bad behavior is center stage.

During the period of time your step son lived with you, you and he formed a confrontational relationship. He may be doing things purposely or he may be careless of your feelings. I don't know if you could both establish a different relationship at this point. You probably both have too much mutual dislike to change things now. That unfortunately puts your husband in the middle.I am sure that he would prefer things to be different. He seems to be trying to avoid conflict by visiting at his son's home. You feel like a stranger and an outsider and I am sure he feels somewhat the same if he has to go elsewhere to enjoy the company of his son. You probably would be happier if he would at least acknowledge your right to feel the way you do. That is called validation. Even if he doesn't feel he can do everything he should to make you happy. Validating your feelings would go a long ways toward you feeling as if his loyalty was still with you.
I will be honest though. I have been where you are and it is so hard to keep from complaining about the behavior. This only serves to put him more in the middle and make him feel as if he has to choose between you or his son. I am sure there are times when he wishes that you would understand how this must be tearing him in two.
I don't know if you have tried to make peace and deal with the strife between Sonny and you but after all, it is between Sonny and you. Perhaps being straight forward about the problem with him might be an answer. It doesn't have to be a confrontation. I would not mention the tension it causes between your husband and you. If Sonny is trying to cause trouble in that way, he doesn't need to know it is successful. Perhaps it would clear the air to let him know that you want to have a better relationship with him and his family. You probably don't want it on the surface. From what you have said, you would probably be happy if you didn't ever have to deal with him at all. The truth of the matter is, that you do have to deal with him. He is a huge part of your husbands life and your husband is the other half of yours. It isn't practical to avoid them. You will have Christmas and Thanksgiving and other holidays where there will always be the tension of how to handle getting together. He may feel about you the way PDM suggested. It may also be that you both have gotten caught up in treating each other badly. I am sure you have tried to be fair and treat him correctly. I am also sure that he can tell how you feel about him now. You both don't have to become best friends but you can both agree to treat each other civily and with respect for the sake of the people you love in common. I am sure that you have been doing this all along and that he has been the source of the problems. Now it has become something that is going to take effort on both of your parts. Unfortunately it is going to probably be harder for you. You are the person that has been offended. Sometimes the peacemaker has to be the bigger person. You have more to gain if it is successful and more to loose if it is not. It will only get worse if you don't resolve things. You will only grow more bitter and hurt and resentful toward your husband. You could let Sonny's actions speak for themselves, but maybe your husband doesn't know how to discipline him without loosing contact with his grandchild. It is what it is. He probably feels helpless and when he defends Sonny it is his way of exonerating his own actions. I am sure he will love you all the more for trying to find a solution that is livable for everyone.

Even if your heart is not totaly in it, you would be surprised how people react when they think that you care enough to try and resolve a bad relationship. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he reacted positively and that was enough to make him treat you with respect.

That sounds like very good advice, Jo.

Yes, perhaps, talking things over with the son, about how best to make his father happy, might be a very good idea.

Have you tried anything like this, Pudgie's mom?

I appreciate all this great advice.

I don't think I explained enough, though, or perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have. I did initiate discussions, several years ago, and Sonny is completely "clueless" -- doesn't even seem to understand what the issues are! He has absolved himself of all responsibility, and hubby has unwittingly contributed to that...

The other problem is that recently, at 37 years old, he went into the army, against the advice of everyone except his wife who shrugged her shoulders, in spite of having a 3-year old daughter, the larger issues of an unethical war, etc.

He was out after two months with a medical discharge, but nonetheless his decision was absolutely wrong for every imaginable reason. If he were my kid, I would have disowned him -- seriously.

My point is that his enlistment was, to me, the very last straw, and is categorically unforgivable and unacceptable.

So --- if we were talking about a few minor incidents, or an 18-year old kid, then I would consider trying to mend fences.

As the saying goes, you can't change someone else, you can only change your own choices.

This whole thing (esp. forum members' feedback) has been helpful, particularly in the sense of realizing that I'm even beyond anger with regard to Sonny; my real issues are with hubby. If there is no possibility of Sonny & wife getting along respectfully with me, then my focus must be on my marriage, and to an extent on protecting myself. I've tried "peacemaker," I've tried "doormat," so let's see how "calm maintainer of boundaries" goes!

I truly do appreciate the ideas you folks have posted, and I will continue to give all of this tremendous thought...

Your step son sounds like an idiot. That said, it is not your place to criticize him as that won't get you anywhere with your husband. You'll unfortunately have to come to terms with the fact that your step son and his wife will continue to make poor decisions (at least ones that you don't agree with) all their lives. It is their life not yours. So, if they want to be stupid with it, you'll have to let them be. Since they're 37, it is unlikely things will improve dramatically.

Is there away that you and your husband can agree to not enable his step son's bad decisions? That way, you (and hopefully, your husband) won't get dragged in.

Yes, it is very much their life not mine, and that's fine until it has a negative impact on hubby and therefore on me (or directly on me, which I am trying to stop).

(Stepson is profoundly self-centered -- is that a type of narcissism? lol)

Trying to not enable him is the very tip of the sword, or the most crucial bone of contention. Hubby just cannot (99% of the time) step up and say "no" to Sonny...

You need to work w/ your hubby as to which bad behaviors you two will not enable. Money is always the first (and best) place to start.

I bought a magazine, yesterday, and one article reminded me of this thread. It was based on some American research. It may be useful to you.

Here's a quote ~ from the article and the book:



The censored word starts with 'b' and means 'nasty woman' ~ in case you were wondering.

http://www.amazon.com/Women-Dont-Ask-Neg...4691&sr=8-3

I would also recommend having a look at the 'Venus and Mars' books. I think that they are very good for helping to understand the difference between male & female psyches ~ and how understanding and misunderstanding can happen. They are probably available at the library.

You can listen to a talk at the website, as well.

http://home.marsvenus.com/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Men-Mars-Women-V...6311&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mars-Venus-Colli...6311&sr=8-3

You did not go into detail about his behavior or that you had tried to speak with him. I am a little puzzled about your example and your description of how it is "the last straw and unforgivable". How does making a decision about joining the service equate with unforgivable behavior in your eyes? I believe you are using this as an example of "self centered behavior" however if his very action somehow affected the relationship you personally have with him, I am confused. At 37 years old, the best we can hope is that our children treat us with respect due a parent but that does not extend to actually "taking" the advice we give them. Most of the time we are lucky if they listen. Frankly, as good as our advice might seem, they in fact show character if they listen and then factor that advice into their decisions but do not follow it word for word. You mentioned that your real problem is with your husband, however, he also has the right to decide how he wants to handle his son. He also has the responsibility to show you that he respects your feelings. If he does not agree with you on how that is done, then working out a compromise that addresses the most important issues is the way that is done. Those issues should be what you can both live with. Talking with your husband so that you both understand what is most important to each of you is important. His son is a grown man and has a life of his own. Your relationship with your husband and the mutual respect you have for each other's position and feelings are what directly impact your lives. If you go to counseling, they will not play referee. They will tell you that no one is right or wrong. There is only a "right way". Figuring out a solution that you can both live with is what they do. It sounds like stepping back is what you are considering and I think you are on the right track but dissasociating yourself from the son entirely will not bring you happiness. Sometimes a situation becomes so entangled and convuluted that we become so frustrated that we loose site of just exactly what will resolve it and make us happy. Sometimes we have to get help to enable us to see what the basic issues really are. I think it is probably important to you to know your husband's loyalties are with you. He on the other hand may feel there are issues you need to accept. You can both still enjoy your grandchild and a family relationship as long as everyone can agree on how that relationship is defined.

It can be difficult I think, to accept that, when you marry an individual, you are, to a degree, marrying a family. And you are never going to get on 100% well with every member of that family.

The one person you can usually vent to, in private, is your spouse ~ but if you are criticising the spouse's family, that's not going to be very helpful. It's a difficult one.

With regard to joining the army, I too found this to be an surprising example. At 37, he can fo whatever he wishes. He's married and his wife supported him,. That's the end of the matter as far as I, from an objective viewpoint, see the matter.

True, to join up when one has a little child is something that I, personally, would be concerned about. And I could see that the worry would be very stressful to his father. But that's life. He is an adult and free to make such choices. Others make similar choices. You and I may agree that it was an unethical war, but plenty of people supported it. He has the right to do so, surely?

I wonder ~ is it just possible that he responds as a kid, because he is treated like a kid?

I'm not quite sure why you say:
"If he were my kid, I would have disowned him ... his enlistment was .. the very last straw, and is categorically unforgivable and unacceptable."

I can understand you feeling that it was a bad choice, in your opinion, but isn't this just your personal opinion, which he doesn't share ~ and doesn't have to share?

Is it possible that the relationship has broken down so badly that anything he does seems wrong to you and anything you do seems wrong to him?

I'm not trying to apportion blame, just trying to disentangle the threads.

What would you like Hubby to say 'no' to, exactly?

I would like hubby to make it clear to sonny that there are serious, long-term consequences to his behavior: "No" he cannot move into our house if he wrecks his marriage, "no" we will not give him money because he's too lazy to get a job, "no" we will not endlessly bail him out of his troubles or make excuses for him to the rest of the family...

Suppose your cousin became a rapist; would you continue to invite him/her over to your house, once they got out of prison? If your best friend joined some horrid club that runs around beating up gay people, wouldn't you stop speaking to him/her and cut him/her out of your life?

I don't expect hubby to ever cut sonny out of his life, but I do expect him to stand up, speak up, and do the right thing, with regard to his wife (me) as well as larger ethical considerations (evidently he joined the army to get specific job training, not caring that he was supporting Bush/Cheney's oil war).

Sonny does not have to share my opinions, but he does have to recognize that there are consequences to offending people (for example, I do not invite into my home or offer hospitality to those who are pro-war any more than I would tolerate Ku Klux Klan members or Nazis!).

The basic issue is that if hubby wishes to be a doormat or enabler or fool for his son, fine, but he does not have a right to impose those roles onto me.

Sometimes in life it really does come down to "black & white," right and wrong. Refusing to confront or set boundaries with sonny when he is rude, inappropriate, unethical, taking advantage, etc. to me is just plain wrong. It places sonny's every little selfish demand above my basic needs (respect, sense of security, etc.).

I will give this more thought and return when I can...

[With regard to the "hard-edged negotiation style" -- I have, over the years, tried every negotiation style imaginable. At this point, I am trying to be clear (in my head) about the line between hard-edged and assertive/firm-but-fair. On some sort of instinctive level, I need to be sure that I am protecting myself as well as the marriage, whereas I used to focus exclusively on what was healthiest for the marriage. Maybe I'm just burnt-out...]

You seem to be feeling sad, angry and confused as to why you and your feelings are not being given enough, or any, consideration.

It sounds as if your husband may feel that he is stuck in the middle of a very difficult situation, not knowing how best to move forward, so doing very little at all about it.

The 'wicked stepmother' scenario is not an unusual one ~ hence all the fairy tales. It's not that the stepmother is really wicked, necessarily, it's just that she is a step-mother. And if step-children think that they are being pushed out, they may push harder to prove ~ even if unconsciously ~ that they are still the apple of their father's eye, and that the new wife is an outsider. This could be happening here.

It sounds like things have become so bad that only counselling will help.

I do think, though, that you need to pick your battles carefully on this one.

It does sound to me as if the son is still taking the role of the child, even though he is a married father. This may go back to emotions surrounding his mother. It may be to do with the way that he is treated now.

'"No" he cannot move into our house if he wrecks his marriage,
"no" we will not give him money because he's too lazy to get a job,
"no" we will not endlessly bail him out of his troubles
or make excuses for him to the rest of the family...'

These sound like reasonable expectations. On the other hand, many parents help out their family in times of financial difficulty or marital breakdown ~ flexibility is probably key here.

Has he wrecked a marriage? ~ The way you describe him & his wife sounded like a joint front, so have I got the wrong impression?

Does he not have a job? ~ Is he not in the army now?

How often do you need to bail him out of troubles? ~ What sort of troubles?

Is he not popular with the rest of the family? ~ Who has he offended?

I'm guessing that many people join the forces for the training opportunities. If he needs a job and money, then this is a positive move, surely?

As for supporting the war, as I said, I was/am completely against it, but I wouldn't equate joining the army with being a racist, a rapist or a Nazi. Some bad things have been done by some soldiers, but joining the army is not illegal ~ and many would not consider it immoral, either. Many would consider it a very noble thing to do. One cannot place one's own ideologies onto others.

As for criminal relatives, though some families would expel them from their lives, others would say that they hate the crime, but still love the individual. If it were me, personally, it would depend on the whole situation; the person, my relationship with them, their background, the crime, etc.

What exactly do step-son & daughter-in-law do that is deliberately rude and offensive to you?
Maybe, with a few specifics, it would be easier to contemplate the situation.

From what you say, it sounds as if you have tried hard to make this work, but can you think of anything that you might have done, yourself, to aggravate your step-son?

If this couple were to come on here, and give their side of the story, what do you think they might say?

If your husband were to come on here, and give his side of the story, what do you think he might say?

If you were an objective observer, do you think you would see things the same or differently?

And how is the little girl coping with all this strife?

Interesting.....

Well, when hubby spends time with his granddaughter, he says she seems fine -- a bit spoiled, but fine! ("She doesn't like the word 'no'" ---??)

With regard to the ideologies issue: in a sense, anyone protesting the war is pushing his/her ideology onto others. Each person has the right to make choices about war, military service, etc.,of course, but the rest of us have a right to say, "I disagree -- strongly."

When Sonny made the choice to enlist, he has to expect negative feedback (from hubby & relatives), just as I have to expect negative comments from some passersby when I participate in an anti-war march.

But no, hubby and other passive relations just sort of put on sickly smiles and shrug their shoulders (but then rant and rave about Sonny when he's out of earshot).

My opinion is that they could sit down with Sonny and try to have a dialogue, at least, about why it was a bad choice and how he might prevent making bad choices in the future. I don't know -- is parenting ever "done," or should parents continue to play a guiding or leading role?

On one level, I suppose I have reached a point where I don't honestly care anymore what choices Sonny makes, as long as they don't impact hubby and me. That is cold and probably naive, but I've really truly had it with this situation...

On a more constructive level: Sorry this is so long, but the following is both a specific example of Sonny's actions and a point about parenting methods ---

Years ago I found a book called When Your Adult Child Won't Grow Up; it was co-written by a psychologist and an advocate of the "Tough Love" approach. There were case histories in the book that were 95% parallel to Sonny's but hubby just wouldn't see the similarities, or on some level simply refused to alter his parenting strategy, failing though it was...

The Tough Love approach could be destructive if used unfairly, but the basic premise is "love the kid, but say 'no' to unhealthy enabling of kid's bad choices -- not fair to kid & not fair to you." (I think it might have begun as a technique to help parents of drug-addicted kids.)

An example from the book & real life: Kid in mid-twenties has frequent car problems, largely due to fact that he never checks oil, trans fluids, tire pressure; has been told repeatedly to take responsibility for preventing car crises (and be sure to save money for repairs & towing); several times a year kid comes to dad and asks for money for car repairs or entirely new car because he ran old one out of oil & engine seized.

The tough love people recommend that dad sit kid down and say (a) we have an unhealthy, unproductive pattern here, (b) you're not grasping the idea of taking responsibility, and I'm partly to blame for that because I keep bailing you out, (c) I love you and want you to be a happy & successful adult who can cope with difficulties, (d) I am choosing to not rescue you from car crises any more -- that is my policy.

Of course the kid will come to dad shortly afterward, asking for money for the car, and the dad should express sympathy ("I'm sure it will be difficult finding alternative transportation to work, & saving up to get your car fixed") but not hand over money.

Kid will throw tantrum, and say hurtful things, but dad has to take deep breaths, support kid emotionally, and reiterate his policy & "hang tough" on the decision.

This is certainly not easy for parents, no doubt, but the goal is to let kid make choices and handle outcomes of choices. It also serves to protect dad's finances!

This whole approach makes perfect sense to me, and regardless of what trendy label one applies, it's what was called ("back in the day") the grow up! parenting approach!!

I didn't list specific Sonny behaviors earlier because I was trying to keep my posts down to a dull roar, length-wise, but I see that they would offer perspective, so here goes:

When we all lived in same house (he was 22-27)-----
-When hubby & I were out, he and friends smoked in house (dad is rabidly anti-smoking)
-" " " " " " , had friends over who had sex in our bed
-" " " " " ", had loud parties which neighbors complained about; continued to do so after being told "no parties!"

-lost job after job because he just didn't show up for days at a time

-paid rent a total of one month

-didn't complete his one chore/responsibility; we had meeting after meeting, re: want a different chore? but rarely ever completed the one thing asked of him

-regularly flooded bathroom floor when showering & won't mop up

-refused to make sure there was bread, milk, toilet tissue, etc. left for other people - used up whatever he wanted and didn't replace or help with any shopping

-had gang-banger friends in house and garage

-repeatedly left garage door unlocked when he left; garage got robbed

-when his one responsibility was to wash dishes, he refused for four days at a stretch, and repeated that several times -- kitchen was covered with filthy dishes on a regular basis

-when I lost my temper and told him that the dishes must be washed today, darn it, I came home from work to find them all piled up on my side of bed

After he moved out:
-lived with mother briefly and broke every rule of her house within two weeks -- parties, smoking, etc.

-called (about an hour before niece's wedding) to ask dad to drive an hour out of his way to bring him dress clothes (in closet at our house) for wedding; I said, "No way -- he can go to store & buy new or go in slob clothes -- I can't drop everything & rush to make his newly-imposed deadline, & he should have thought of this earlier" but dad said, "Sure, Sonny" -- we have terrible argument & I skip wedding

-takes 17-yr. old girl for ride on his motorcycle, has accident, and has let insurance policy lapse; girl's parents' insurance covers her medical bills and they don't sue Sonny; accident was caused by his failure to do basic maintenance on bike (which he had been taught since childhood)

-calls dad about going into army; dad asks what mother thinks about the idea; Sonny says, "She's all for it!" which turns out to be an outright lie.

-Sonny announces that he's joined the army; after I spend a day picking up the pieces of devastated dad/hubby, and trying to console Sonny's mother, I get idiotic e-mail from daughter-in-law re: "Isn't this swell? Let's all throw a going-away dinner for Sonny!" I "snap" and send reply re: "this is a catastrophic decision -- everyone's freaking out -- he lied -- he's pulled some stunts in the past but this really takes the cake -- sure we can all have a lovely dinner, if you call grown adults sobbing into their dinner napkins a lovely time..." D.-in-L. then calls hubby's cell phone to complain about me! "Something has to be done about Paula - she said awful things about Sonny!" She also decides not to invite me to granddaughter's 4th birthday party...

-at hubby's family bridal shower (all women), D.-in-L shows up with Sonny, who procedes to sit down and chow down. Five of hubby's relatives, one by one, pull me aside to ask why on earth Sonny is here; I am as stunned as they and say, "I have no idea," and eventually resent that they are asking me instead of Sonny or D.-in-L.......

If any hardy souls are still reading, please accept my gratitude! Thanks for "listening" ----

Wow!

Is it just his personality, or is he just trying the children's behaviour of how far can I push Mummy & Daddy before they stop loving me? That is bad behaviour ~ no doubt about it.

I'll probably come back to this but first of all, I think that lots of kids are a bit like this ~ I say a bit. My son needs to be asked a few times before he remembers he's agreed to wash up, for example. On the other hand, he's a lot younger.

He has parties, but takes it upon himself to tell his friends that no smoking is allowed and no-one may go in the bedrooms, etc. On the other hand, he is one of just a few friends who don't come from broken homes. Stability is key, I think, in kids.

I know someone who, shall we say, took advantage of the hospitality of relatives ~ in effect, playing the blood relative off against the married partner. It caused friction, until that person was asked to leave, and this caused additional friction within the wider family, but the person matured and settled down and became independent. The relationship between all parties is now pretty good. Husband, though willing to support relative, stuck by wife, saying it was her home and that other people could not be allowed to upset the household. The thing is, the relative was not 'offspring'. That can make a huge difference, I think.

Anyway, to get back to your manchild. He is now 37. When he lived with you he was 27. Has any maturing taken place? Presumably the days of sex parties in your bed are over. (Presumably he should now be feeling guilty and ashamed that he ever allowed them to happen.)

How old was he at the time of the motor-bike accident?

He couldn't keep down a job, but he joined the army. Maybe the training and discipline would help him. Is he still in the army?
Obviously, the fact that his father is worried sick about him didn't enter his head, but was this done with malice, or because of thoughtlessness, or because he thought that it was the only way for him to grow up and be a man at last?

I think, also, it has probably become very hard now to see the wood for the trees ~ the things that other people do, just because they are not like you, and the things they do, just to be awkward.

I once had a mother and baby party at my home. It was for my little-one's birthday, but it was just for mothers and babies/toddlers. My sister-in-law was invited with her toddler ~ but brother-in-law and father-in-law turned up with her ~ and stayed. They just thought that, as it was a family birthday, they could come. I had told my own family that it was not that kind of do, so they hadn't come, but ...

Other families do things differently, and when you marry into another family, as we all tend to do, there are going to be misunderstandings and different values, etc.

This chap is still behaving like a teenager ~ probably the 19-year-old he was when you came on the scene. Until he was 7, he had Mummy & Daddy. From then, until 19, he had Dad to himself. Then you arrived and turned his world upside down. He's still stuck at that same age ~ relying on Dad, resenting the new lady, who has usurped his place as number 1 in Dad's life, and he's constantly checking that Dad still loves him, no matter what he does, and that even the new lady can't change that.

How much do his parents love him? ~ Enough to 'sob into their dinner napkins' because he has joined the army.

How much does his Dad love him? ~ Enough to 'drive an hour out of his way to bring him dress clothes'.

Does your appearance on the scene change things? ~ No, you didn't even go to the wedding.

How far can he push his Dad, before his Dad stops loving him?
How far can he push his Dad, before his Dad stops loving him more than he loves you?

It's a constant test, and I'm guessing that he doesn't even realise. He needs help to mature emotionally.

Because that's what kids need ~ to be loved more than anyone or anything else in the world ~ unconditionally.But he is an adult.
And he is still a kid. A bit of him is that 7-year-old, the rest is that 19-year-old. Some is now 37, but he's not being allowed out much.

I really think that counselling is the only answer. That boy-man needs to see things objectively. Probably you all do by now.

Hubby is just locked in the middle of something that he can't cope with. What is he supposed to do? Whatever he does will look as if he loves one of you more than the other. He can't bear that ~ and he can't bear to lose his boy and grandchild. He probably can't bear to lose you, either, but he's burying his head in the sand on that one, because his brain can't take on any more conflicting emotions.

Is counselling an option?
Would everyone agree to it?

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this:

"He's still stuck at that same age ~ relying on Dad, resenting the new lady, who has usurped his place as number 1 in Dad's life, and he's constantly checking that Dad still loves him, no matter what he does, and that even the new lady can't change that."

Some of his behavior was typical teenager stuff, no doubt -- pushing limits, etc., and some of it was definitely attention-seeking.

At this point, I agree with you that "...it's a constant test, and I'm guessing that he doesn't even realise. He needs help to mature emotionally."

Part of the problem with Sonny and D.-in-Law is a sense of entitlement, and I know that drives many people of my generation (and up) absolutely nuts. S. & D.-in-L. have expressed their desire for a dresser/bureau that had been Sonny's as a child, but then say, "I see (sigh!) that you're using it in the guest bedroom, so... sigh..." I find myself astonished at such pushy, greedy, leech-like behavior, but I hear it goes on all the time.

I am trying, therefore, to keep in mind that Sonny comes from an entire generation of Americans who were spoiled rotten and had no major social issues to worry about.

Nonetheless, though, one of the big pieces of baggage that I carry around (with regard to Sonny) is the fact that he never apologized for a single thing. If he does feel guilty or ashamed about anything that happened, he's keeping it to himself, and has consistently portrayed me to his wife and friends as the classic evil stepmother!

Perhaps on some level he did feel that army life would "straighten him out" a bit; the main factor that has kept him in line for the past few years is his wife. Her bossiness, grating though it may be to some of the family, has kept Sonny on the straight and narrow, although why she supported his army decision is anyone's guess... He is out now, on a medical discharge, so he's home (permanently), not employed, and is going to medical specialists about his ankle problem (the cause for his discharge).

Hubby would agree (reluctantly) to counselling, as would I, assuming that the two of us can be crystal clear on the goals and honest about our agendas. I do think that could work...

As for Sonny, I don't know. It might be a huge, positive step if the three of us (or even just Sonny and hubby) could hash out some issues and get some clarity, and I would be willing to at least give it a try.

On a side note, here, re: "I once had a mother and baby party at my home. It was for my little-one's birthday, but it was just for mothers and babies/toddlers. My sister-in-law was invited with her toddler ~ but brother-in-law and father-in-law turned up with her ~ and stayed. They just thought that, as it was a family birthday, they could come. I had told my own family that it was not that kind of do, so they hadn't come, but ..." Isn't that a peculiar situation? lol As hostess you can't very well say, "Er, you two need to leave," but it seems unfair to your other male relatives if those two stay...

Thanks again for the advice!

It does sound as if he thinks that he has first entitlement to his father's time, money, love, etc, which, I think, is down to the 'wicked stepmother stealing Daddy away' scenario. And, I must admit, I do have some sympathy with that. I'm not saying that his father wasn't entitled to fall in love again, or that the boy should have been rude to you, or anything else of that nature ~ just that it must be very hard for a youngster to suddenly have to share the father he has had to himself for a number of years ~ and not even with his own mother, but with someone who he feels has invaded the family.

As for the dresser.
Who actually owns it?
Was it just part of the general furniture that was in the home when he was a boy?
Who bought it?
Did it actually belong to him?
Was it bought specifically for him?
Did his mother own or buy it?
Does he have good reason to believe that he has more right to it than you do?

Many years before I met Hubby, but well after his divorce from Sonny's mother, he dated a woman with a daughter for many years. They didn't live together (which as you rightly point out has been a huge issue for me & hubby & sonny), but they talked about it.

They ended up breaking up because of arguments about child discipline. She felt that Hubby simply wasn't disciplining Sonny at all, and it was unfair to her daughter to live up to a stricter set of standards; how could living together or a marriage work with such different parenting styles?

When I first heard that from Hubby and from mutual friends, I felt so sorry for Hubby & marvelled at how manipulative Sonny was. Now I can see it a bit more from Sonny's perspective, and I marvel at Hubby's ability to deny or ignore criticism... strange...

The dresser was given to Hubby and Ex-wife to use for Sonny; it would then have been used for any other children they might have had (but didn't).

When Sonny finally moved out, burning bridges with me and to a lesser extent with Hubby, I later painted the dresser and we have used it in the guest bedroom.

Two years ago, I found Sonny's old lawn chair from childhood. I spent two days straight cleaning it and sewing on new padded cushions, so we could give it to granddaughter, since it might have sentimental value for them. I've also made sure that anything of Sonny's that turned up during closet reorganizing was given to him.

If circumstances were different, and Sonny & d.-in-l. asked for dresser, we'd say "fine." They apparently either don't understand or don't "own" the fact that he left this house under a dark cloud, burned an awful lot of bridges, and has never apologized. D.-in-l has bought all of Sonny's stories about "evil stepmother" and has never once, in all this time, pulled me aside and asked about the past or asked if there is a "fix" for the situation.

I don't care one whit about the actual dresser. It's the idea that I'm somehow a crummy person, "hoarding" what should be Sonny's property, that irritates me.

I sometimes think that the two of them see Hubby as a bottomless pool of resources for them (but with me standing in the way); whether that reflects a "first entitlement" issue or just sheer "cluelessness," I don't know.

Sad to say, but if Hubby dies before me, Sonny and D.-in-l will have the surprise of their lives, in terms of allocation of our resources. I would set up an inheritance for Granddaughter, for when I die, but those two won't see a dime. ("Revenge of the 'Evil' Stepmother" -- it is a silly but calming fantasy for me)

Then there's the further issue that Sonny never, ever asks Hubby if he needs a hand with anything, if he's given a thought to retirement, if he wants to come over and spend the day, etc. Hubby always initiates a visit. On Father's Day, Hubby is lucky to get a mere phone call -- no card or gift.

Sorry -- I believe I'm off and running on another rant about them!

It sounds like he needs to sort himself out, so that he can mature fully ~ and to sort out his feelings about you.

As for his wife ~ well, she's just sticking by her husband, I suppose.

Things are rarely completely clear in family disagreements, so, if you can get this counselling sorted out, I think that it should be beneficial to everyone.

Good luck.

Thank you.

After reading all of the posts and listening to the general tenor of most of what has been said I have an observation that I would like to share. I was in a "step" mother situation myself at one time. There was the typical denial of what was occuring. Denial that there were problems that wound up doing damage to the child. The child it turned out was damaged beyond repair long before I got on the scene. I was fighting a uphill battle until I discovered everything that had been going on and that everyone knew about the problems and had ignored them for years. By the time I got on the scene I was dealing with a six year old that was a liar, a thief,a con artist, a fire starter, animal abuser, manipulative, failing in school, and without a conscience. I spent my days working and my evenings picking up after three children and combing the neighborhood till 10:00 at night looking for her. Nothing we did, including, a psychiatrist helped. Her father finally admitted that he and the grandmother had known about the stealing for a while and that recommendations by teachers to hold her back in school had been ignored. Teachers observed the same thing I did. She acted like she never heard what was said the day before. She was intelligent, just overwhelmed by work that she could not do. Finally the father was forced to admit the truth. The strain was overwhelming on the marriage. I wanted to love her, but not a day went by that I was permitted too. There was always something that caused me to have to be diciplining or restricting her. It became such an unpleasant relationship that I knew I could not be the mother she needed. I was having a terrible time finding love in my heart for her. I was also haveing a terribly difficult time trying to be fair and still be a good mother. The line between being a good mother who wanted her to mind me and being an over bearing step mother was beginning to blur. I was dealing with something every day. One day she would steal my son's paper money and go to the carnival with her friend. One day she would pan handle around the neighborhood for money telling the neighbors that I needed gas money. One day she would steal a coin collection from a friends father and fence it on the street. Every day she would stay out late somewhere and not come home after school. One day she would try to choke the hamster by lighting matches near it. One day she would try to poison the cat who clawed her. You get the picture.
My point is, I have been where you are. I don't think there is anything deep about Sonny's adjustment to the relationship or sharing his father. He and you just plain don't get along. Whatever chance you both had of forming a relationship went wrong real early and never got better. He was used to a certain relationship with his father and when you came along you wanted to introduce new aspects like chores and rent. I don't know if his father went along with these things or not. If he didn't then that made you the inforcer and the bad guy because it was your idea. If he didn't go along with it, then that should have been your first clue that you would be cast in the roll of wicked step mother whether you wanted it or not.

From the tone of most of your posts, your angry and disgusted and you don't have the slightest bit of motherly love for Sonny let alone any other kind of affection. I am sure he has been aware of this since the age of 20. He is now 37 and you have been rubbing each other wrong for 17 years. I would venture to say that you would have to be a saint not to have allowed how you feel affect your actions and words towards him. He sounds like he has been a demon in the past but I don't think he could ever do anything that you would approve of. I don't believe Sonny is the problem anymore. If you don't find some way to let go of the anger and resentment and realize how it has affected your "objectivness" where he and your husbands conduct is concerned , you will be right where I was. You will be so angry and so frustrated that you won't be able to tell if your reactions are correct or biased by years of hateing Sonny. You are going to be the only looser here. You will wind up being what you think they are making you out to be. "The wicked step mother". I was so close to being just that that I stepped back and took a good look at what it was doing to me and I walked away. The reason I walked away was that I realized I could no longer be her mother at all. She would be better off without me. You don't have to be a mother to Sonny. He is a grown man. You do have to make peace with your husband and live in that family without affecting your husbands right to his own relationship with sonny in his own way.
PDM is so totally right on this one. Unless you want to walk away, you NEED to get counseling to help you let go of the anger and find that way. I wish you luck, I hope I have not offended you in any way. I only want to help because I know the hell you are living right now. I lived it. In Spades.

Wow - what a nightmare for you!

I'll give your post more thought and get back here a.s.a.p....

Yes, some of those points, made so well by Jo, are ones I was picking up on a little, myself ~ I just wasn't sure. I think that they should be very helpful to you, Pudgie's mom, as you try to survey the wider situation, as objectively as you can.