RomanceClass.com Forums Romance Long Term Partners Marriage - an outdated institution?

In days gone by, children born out of wedlock were called names and felt like second-class citizens. Unmarried mothers were often locked up in insane asylyms. Elderly spinsters, of perhaps 25, were considered to be 'on the shelf'. Widowed women dressed in black, hid themselves away and became old before their time - society was not a place to show yourself without a husband. Divorced women - well not many women had the chance to divorce their husbands and a lot suffered violence in the home. Those who could escape may well have been considered 'no better than she ought to be'. If an unmarried couple lived together, as 'man and wife', but without a marriage certificate, he was a rogue and she was a scarlet woman. It just wasn't 'done'. It's done now. Society has changed. Some changes may have taken things further than some of us would have liked, but many of those changes were for the better. Marriage is an ancient institution; is it too ancient for the modern world? [b]Is marriage out of date?[/b] I'm going to give some quotes from an interesting & relevant article from: ‘The Week’, that I have quoted from before.

Quotes extracted from: ‘The Week’ – the best of the US & international media.’ 4/2/2004 [i]The origins of marriage How old is the institution? The best available evidence suggests that [the institution of marriage] is about 4,350 years old. For thousands of years before that, most anthropologists believe, families consisted of loosely organized groups of as many as 30 people, with several male leaders, multiple women shared by them, and children. As hunter-gatherers settled down into agrarian civilizations, society had a need for more stable arrangements. The first recorded evidence of marriage ceremonies uniting one woman and one man dates from about 2350 B.C., in Mesopotamia. Over the next several hundred years, marriage evolved into a widespread institution embraced by the ancient Hebrews, Greeks, and Romans. But back then, marriage had little to do with love or with religion. Marriage’s primary purpose was to bind women to men, and thus guarantee that a man’s children were truly his biological heirs. Through marriage, a woman became a man’s property …. As the Roman Catholic Church became a powerful institution in Europe, the blessings of a priest became a necessary step for a marriage to be legally recognized. ….. …… Men were taught to show greater respect for their wives, and forbidden from divorcing them. ….. … the idea of romantic love, as a motivating force for marriage, only goes as far back as the Middle Ages. … … the concept of romantic love [gave] women greater leverage in what had been a largely pragmatic transaction. … … Women won the right to vote. When that happened, in 1920, the institution of marriage began a dramatic transformation. Suddenly, each union consisted of two full citizens, … …. “The idea that marriage is a private relationship for the fulfillment of two individuals is really very new,” said historian Stephanie Coontz, author of The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap. “Within the past 40 years, marriage has changed more than in the last 5,000.”[/i] http://www.theweekmagazine.com/briefing.asp?a_id=567

Fortunately the days of the man domineering the wife in a marriage that had no escape are long gone.

Although living together is easy enough, I really think that having that special 'piece of paper' is the icing on the cake of true love.

There may be a divorce if you're married but even in a partnership it's still virtually the same, particularly if you have a shared home and children.

I don't see anything wrong in living together but would still prefer to be married at some stage.

Yes, I think that marriage has changed for the better. I'm in favour.

It's our silver anniversary tomorrow. I can't think where 25 years have gone!

PDM Congratulations on your anniversary, that's marvellous

WOOHOO!!! Congratulations PDM!!

Here's a bit of history I found for you:

"The practice of giving peculiar gifts on various wedding anniversaries originated in Central Europe. Among the medieval Germans it was customary for friends to present a wife with a wreath of silver when she had lived with her husband twenty-five years. The silver symbolized the harmony that was assumed to be necessary to make so many years of matrimony possible. On the fiftieth anniversary of a wedding the wife was presented with a wreath of gold. Hence arose 'silver wedding' and 'golden wedding.' This practice, borrowed from the Germans, has been elaborated upon in modern times" - INFORMATION ROUNDUP by George Stimpson (1948)

Thank you both - and for that fascinating nugget of information, Nikkums. I didn't know that. I think I'll go out wreathed in silver this evening!

I like this concept of modern marriage. Before I married my husband last year I knew he loved me and wanted to be with me, but getting married has somehow added even more solidity to our union. I know that probably sounds silly, I just can't find the words!

Now when the phone rings and someone asks for Mr M, I can tell them "he's not here, but I'm his wife, can I help you?" and you can hear their voice change and they will talk to me. When I used to say I was his girlfriend they were still a little unsure. Does that make any sense?

Getting married has also changed his mother's attitude to me. Before she wasn't too sure about me and he's told me that she frequently told him in private that I wasn't good enough etc. Now I've got the same name as them and she's seen he really wants me to be here, I get new respect from her and she really seems glad I've joined the family. Funny thing lol.

Marriage works for us because we have a very deep love and understanding of each other on many many levels. We know we will never find anyone more suited to us and that makes us determined to keep our marriage strong and vibrant and maintain what we are so lucky to enjoy together. I can only hope that we can emulate your 25 years of marriage PDM, that is an achievement of which you can be very proud. Do you have any advice for this newlywed as to how it's done?

Congratulations on your recent marriage Mary!

When we first married people would come to the door and ask for my Mum and Dad. I'd say 'no but you can speak to my husband'. I was 23 - and my husband is actually younger than me - but apparently I only looked about 16.

Advice?
Try to remain 'friends' always.
Keep a sense of humour.
The old adage never let the sun set on a quarrel is a good one.

One thing I really think is worth doing, though, is getting a book on the differences between the male and female brains. I have a few of them. I suppose the most well-known is the Venus & Mars one - though whether it's the best is another matter!

Really, though, male & female brains work differently and lots of misunderstandings can result. This can result in arguments if you don't realise what is happening. It is much easier to understand each other and each other's behaviour if you understand a bit about the science behind it.

Thank you for your congratulations! Thank you also for your interesting and intelligent input on these boards, which I have been reading over the last few days. Believe it or not I've only just found all this life beyond the Keet boards!

I'll have a look for a book as you've suggested, that sounds like a great idea. My husband and I are very much in tune and what you suggested is very much along the lines of how we are, so we must be doing something right! lol

In my (limited) experience marriage means to have all the benefits of two brains instead of one, two people working as a single unit for the good of both. This kind of teamwork makes us stronger as a couple and as individuals. I know he's around and if I need anything at all, I simply have to call him and he'll be there. That fact gives me huge confidence.

He often refers to an event early in our lives as a couple when one cold winter night he had to be outside working into the early hours. I knew he would come home frozen and I super-overheated the bed with my electric blanket before he arrived. When he got in bed he didn't know the blanket was on, and he's never forgotten how good it felt, getting into this red hot bed and defrosting before a long cosy sleep. A small insignificant event, I know, but it obviously meant a lot to him, and it's daft little thoughtful things like that which bind us together and make us appreciate each other so much.

Another time, early in our courtship when we lived miles apart, I was ill in bed with stomach cramps, really fed up and grumpy. When Interflora delivered a large bouquet of flowers I was gobsmacked. By chance he rang a few minutes later, I was crying down the phone, overcome by his thoughtfulness, and will never forget it. I found out later he'd stored the phone number of the local florist in his phone a few months earlier for just such an occasion. What an amazing man. My eyes are full of happy tears just thinking about this! lol

I'm sorry to go on, but I really do think this is exactly what modern marriage is about.

Soul-mates! It must be.

*sigh* maybe one day I'll meet the right guy... If I can be as happy as you lot then it'll be worth it.

I'm still young so maybe, just maybe, one day .. but I live in a small town.

PDM and Mary, thanks for the input

Nikkums I'm sure he's out there and I'm sure you'll find him one day. I had to wait until my late twenties before all this happened to me. I met my husband about ten years ago when we were both with other people. We didn't get to know each other at all at first and lost touch for years. Then by chance we met again three years ago, we got to know each other very well and suddenly the sparks were flying and love blossomed. (You may be sick now if you need to, I know that sounds really mushy but it's true).

We'd both given up on finding "the one" after a string of failed relationships. I didn't think he existed. Hubby is about ten years older than me, so he was really starting to despair. Neither of us are particularly thin or overly good looking, so it really does go to show that it can happen to anyone. Please take heart from this true story.

They were discussing the institution of marriage on BBC Radio 4's 'Womans Hour' this morning.

Some points that came up:
(I'm paraphrasing and relying on memory, so I may have made some errors. It may be possible for you to listen to the programme yourself via the website, if you so wish)

A young mother who had lost her 'common law husband' was shocked to find that she was not entitled to a widow's pension or any similar financial support because she was not married.

An older woman similarly found herself without home or anything when her fiance, with whom she had lived for nearly ten years, told her she had to go because he was no longer interested.

A married woman told of how her husband emptied their joint bank account and left her with only the joint mortgage to pay.

A Christian woman was extolling the institution of marriage but said that it could not be extended to Gay people because it was a rite involving one man and one woman.

A Gay woman said that marriage should be open to all committed and faithful loving couples regardless.

A Gay man agreed that marriage was a ceremony involving a man and a woman but felt that a civil union should be available to homosexual couples.

A heterosexual woman said that the civil union that was being brought in for Gay couples should be available for heterosexual unions, too.

A Muslim woman said that marriage was there not for romantic love but so that males and females could behave as males & females do and have childen in a manner acceptable to God.

An older couple, who had lived together for many years, decided to get married for financial reasons and made all the middle-aged and elderly women in their village much happier about their arrangement.

Of course there were many more comments, some good and some bad.

PDM, you have raised some more fascinating points here, for which I thank you. Two which I would like to pick up on are quoted here -

"A young mother who had lost her 'common law husband' was shocked to find that she was not entitled to a widow's pension or any similar financial support because she was not married.

An older woman similarly found herself without home or anything when her fiance, with whom she had lived for nearly ten years, told her she had to go because he was no longer interested. "

When I am asked why I wanted to marry Mr M, I reply that we are going to be together forever so why not? Which is absolutely true, but not the whole answer. Before our marriage, a tiny niggly part of me was terrified that this wonderful relationship would somehow be scuppered, perhaps by his mother whispering in his ear. In addition my own mother is a strong advocate of women's rights and when she saw me throw myself body and soul into this relationship she was worried I could be left with nothing at some point.

We run a very small business, and I am an employee for tax purposes. Our work centres around his creativity and products he makes, and I deal with admin. If something happened to him so he couldn't work, the business would be finished. Or just like the example above, if he told me to go, I would have nothing. I'm not paranoid and my confidence in hubby is absolute, but life doesn't always go the way you want it to. I've seen enough episodes of Judge Judy to know that (lol!) - she's very scathing towards women who don't protect their interests. An unmarried woman, living in a house with his name on the deeds, with no outside job is pretty vulnerable.

So, is marriage an outdated institution?

I think that it is a transitional institution that has changed through the ages. However I am a hopeless romantic and married for love and sees things through rose colored glasses.

I sure hope its not outdated.
And yes its been 40 years for us and both of our sons got married and have great wives and also great in-laws I know for a fact that both sets of in-laws really love my sons and that makes me feel good for them.

It's not necessarily outdated. More people feel that the only necesity behind it is legality. Friends of the family (who are actually going to host my wedding in June) were together for 20 years before deciding to get married. there was no huge ceremony just a justice and a barbeque afterwards. Heh, many of us didn't know they had gotten married till we showed up at the bbq, or didn't know they weren't married till then. They got married to legally be allowed to deal with financial and heath matters relating to the other party. They had been together for so long that nothing else really mattered. It may not be a very romantic notion but they were already married in their hearts.

My Joseph and I are getting married after 3 years and this is also more for legality than anything else. We know that we love eachother and are not going anywhere. But I have children from my ex and if something happens to me he wont ever see them again and neither will his family. After my previous relationship falling apart after 5 years I decided that If I found someone that I loved we would get married. Might be a little insurance to be sure that we don't fall apart over an argument (you think things over MUCH more when a divorce is involved) but it's more legality reasons than anything else.

I think that if there was an option of a common law marriage (where you just go in or send in a form and don't have to to through a ceremony) more ppl would do that. At least in future generations. Currently many of our parents and grandparents still believe in the old traditions of if you live together you getmarried so there isa lot of family pressure. But I can see fewer people getting married in the future unless the legal system changes to accomodate that. Marriage happens in heart, that piece of paper means nothing.

I was wondering if it was the same in the USA as here ~ many couple do not marry.

I would think you would want to be married just for the protection it provides you (Like insurance, pensions health and children issues and I'm sure there are other things as well)
I don't understand why not if your in love enough to live together what is the deal that you don't want to be married.
I myself think that most guys think if they already have the girls living with them why bother with the rest. I think marriage actually protects women the most but I also feel it gives protection to a man as well. Just think what if you had no other family and you became ill do you want the state making decisions for you or someone you love doing it.
And yes I agree marriage does happen in the heart but its always nice to have that piece of paper for protection.
Another example what if your living with someone and say you buy lots of things together and set up a household and one of you decideds they don't like the other and starts cheating and wants out and tells you to get out but you can't have anything because I'm keeping it all. Well in our state its 50/50 so you would not be out on the streets with nothing. Just a little something to think about.
And yes I know when we are in love we think its forever and hopefully it will be but sadly that is not always the case.
Anyway these are just a few of my thoughts on the subject.

PDM i assure you, its just the same here.

Exactly, many ppl get married for those reasons instead of only for love. Before it was oh i love you and i don't care about anything else i just want to be with you. now a days it's more of just going through the motions for legal protection.

Just a question for thought if its just going through the motions why all the big wedding costing tons of dollars (which I think is a waste of money myself)
I would hope if I had to do it over I would be smart enough and elope and save all of that money.
I can't believe my ears when I see on tv how much some of these wedding cost. I could easily live on it for a year or more.
So I personally can't believe its just going thru the motions for everyone.
And yes I had a church wedding with dress bridesmaids and reception and no it did not cost an arm and leg back then however maybe it did to my parents. I do know to this day that my mom was mad at my dad as he played big shot and kept an open bar going all night long and they really socked it to them on the bar bill.
We also did not have a long time planning.
My husband was in the service and we got married on his first leave so we had just a few months to plan everything.
Have some good stories also on this which someday will post in funny stories.

Like I said, the current generation (mine) has parents that believe strongly in Mariage still. By the time my boys get married there will probably be much more eloping. My fiance considered going to Vegas but decided no to due to family. We're still keeping it very low key but doing it mainly for kids. We want children together and I am NOT going through the legal crap if something happens to one of us.. That and we're sick and tired of being asked 'so when are you two getting married?' :P

Both of my sons had smaller weddings as well. And I thought they were just find no one had to go broke and the weddings were very nice.

My older son they just had lots of hor du houres (don't know how to spell it to lazy to look it up) and a DJ which was one of their friends.
My younger son got married outside at a lodge in Upper Minnesota on Lake Superior. We stayed there for the week-end in a cottage which was beatiful right on the lake. They did all the table decorations she ordered her dress on line and they did cupcakes instead of a cake they also had tons of candy on the tables it was a sugar additics dream. They only had about 75 people or maybe a little less. We had a great time at each of their weddings you did not feel rushed or pressured or anything it was very relaxing. Their wedding was almost like a vacation with a few parties thrown in.

That's like ours. Joe's parents have money and wanted a big affair but i guess you could consider mine from the other side of the tracks. So we're just doing it backyard style... I think the total on our guest list is 38 or so including kids. a friend of the family is letting us do it at their house in a back field filled with fruit trees and surrounded by old growth forest. after the formalities it's pretty much going to be a bbq... fancy white dress in the woods and buffalo wings, shall be interesting.

When, and before, I married my husband, I wouldn't have dreamed of living together out of wedlock.

And many still believe that. Same as no sex before marriage. I do think that couples should live together if only in a temp fashion at least to that they know that they wont kill eachother after a week.

I'm not sure how I would feel if I was young and embarking on a relationship now. I think that I would still want the 'sense of stability' ~ I'm not sure what else to call it ~ that being married gives, but I don't know..

To this level?


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